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Oct 18 vh

 
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nataraj



Joined: 03 Aug 2007
Posts: 1048
Location: near Vienna, Austria

PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2007 6:30 am    Post subject: Oct 18 vh Reply with quote

a good one for xy-wings ...

first in boxes 1 and 3 ( 68-67-78 ),
then boxes 5 and 6 ( 59-56-69 )
and finally, boxes 4 and 6 ( 57-67-56 )

if I remember correctly, the last one was in a BUG+1 situation, but if possible I try to avoid the uniqueness argument and try to find xy-wings or xy-chains instead, which should always be possible with so many bi-value/bi-location links available.

BTW, does anybody know of a BUG+1 situation that cannot be solved using xy-chain or coloring techniques?
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sdq_pete



Joined: 30 Apr 2007
Posts: 119
Location: Rotterdam, NL

PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2007 12:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

By way of confirmation, I came across the same 3 XY's.

Peter
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Marty R.



Joined: 12 Feb 2006
Posts: 5770
Location: Rochester, NY, USA

PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2007 3:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I used those XY-Wings, plus one more that was extended with coloring. Before I found that last puzzle-busting Wing, I also found a couple of W-Wings. A fun puzzle.
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Earl



Joined: 30 May 2007
Posts: 677
Location: Victoria, KS

PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2007 4:08 pm    Post subject: Oct 18 VH Reply with quote

I used an four step xy chain from R4C4 to R5C8 to eliminate <5> in R4C8 which opened the puzzle. I don't particularly like chains, but I saw it and it worked.

Earl
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cgordon



Joined: 04 May 2007
Posts: 769
Location: ontario, canada

PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2007 7:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I brilliantly used a combination of an Empty Rectangle on 8s (C2, T hinge in Box 5 and target C4R8); an x-wing on 7s (C68); and a skyscraper on 7s in R59 (target C9R8).
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eddieg



Joined: 12 Jan 2006
Posts: 47
Location: San Diego, CA USA

PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2007 10:18 pm    Post subject: cgordon Reply with quote

"I brilliantly used a combination of an Empty Rectangle on 8s (C2, T hinge in Box 5 and target C4R8); an x-wing on 7s (C68); and a skyscraper on 7s in R59 (target C9R8)."

I got a chuckle out of that. You are brilliant on my view.
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tlanglet



Joined: 17 Oct 2007
Posts: 2468
Location: Northern California Foothills

PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2007 10:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I initially found two swordfish, one on 2 and another on 6, but they did not seem to help very much. After I found the third XY-Wing, it finally fell in place.
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duffy



Joined: 13 Sep 2007
Posts: 26
Location: Toronto Canada

PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2007 12:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I find myself never using swordfish these days: other techniques seem to make them unnecessary. I do, however, spot xy-wings more easily than ever as a result of experience, I suppose. It turns out I used exactly the three initially reported by nataraj. I would say, however, that it is not just a question of an abundance of bi-value cells, but also a kind of "diagonal adjacency" (for lack of a better phrase) of lots of bi-value cells that don't in themselves make hidden pairs. (To a degree, hidden or locked pairs are not good candidates for xy-wings; the pair can never be used directly in the wing.) Perhaps this is what nataraj is alluding to when he says there are "...many bi-value/bi-location links available."
Razz
Don D.
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crunched



Joined: 05 Feb 2008
Posts: 168

PostPosted: Sat Apr 19, 2008 3:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

From time to time, I go back and do an archived puzzle. I am not good at finding wings, but I am getting better at it. I notice that all you "pros" used wings to solve this. I never found a wing here. But I did solve this puzzle. I found a UR consisting of 3 68s in boxes 7 & 8, along with a 678. This eliminated the 68 in that one box, leaving a 7. This solved the puzzle for me. Actually it was a UP (instead of UR), where P stands for parallelogram.
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Asellus



Joined: 05 Jun 2007
Posts: 865
Location: Sonoma County, CA, USA

PostPosted: Sat Apr 19, 2008 8:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

crunched,

I assume you are referring to one of the archive puzzles, not the VH of 18-Apr-2008 discussed above since <6> was a given in box 8.

A parallelogram (non-rectangle) arrangement of 4 matching bivalues does not form a deadly pattern, even when limited to two boxes. So, I'm afraid you might have gotten lucky on this one.

With just a little practice, XY Wings and XYZ Wings are not difficult to spot. There is a systematic way to hunt for them in a grid. Take a look at nataraj's post here. (Earlier in that same thread is a post about hunting for X-Wings. I find it efficient to hunt for X-Wings and Skyscrapers at the same time.)
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crunched



Joined: 05 Feb 2008
Posts: 168

PostPosted: Sun Apr 20, 2008 6:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Asellus wrote:
crunched,

I assume you are referring to one of the archive puzzles, not the VH of 18-Apr-2008 discussed above since <6> was a given in box 8.


Yes, I was referring to the 10/18/07 VH puzzle.

Asellus wrote:

A parallelogram (non-rectangle) arrangement of 4 matching bivalues does not form a deadly pattern, even when limited to two boxes. So, I'm afraid you might have gotten lucky on this one.

With just a little practice, XY Wings and XYZ Wings are not difficult to spot. There is a systematic way to hunt for them in a grid. Take a look at nataraj's post here. (Earlier in that same thread is a post about hunting for X-Wings. I find it efficient to hunt for X-Wings and Skyscrapers at the same time.)


Umm...yes again you are right. I was just lucky to solve the puzzle with a faux technique! I got lucky on this two times, and then when I used it a third time, the puzzle crashed like a turnpike collision!

Thanks for the post. I need to look (up) for skyscrapers, to see how they look. Are they quite common?
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Asellus



Joined: 05 Jun 2007
Posts: 865
Location: Sonoma County, CA, USA

PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 12:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

crunched wrote:
Thanks for the post. I need to look (up) for skyscrapers, to see how they look. Are they quite common?

You're welcome! Glad it was helpful.

Skyscrapers are definitely useful and probably more common than (the already somewhat common) X-Wings. Both methods involve finding a candidate that is limited to 2 cells within two rows (or within two columns). If the two pairs line up exactly on both ends (form a rectangle), then in is an X-Wing. If they only line up on one end, then it might be a Skyscraper.

It is a Skyscraper if (1) the two parallels pairs are in different "chutes" (a row of three boxes) and (2) the non-aligned ends are in the same chute (perpendicular to the parallel pairs, of course). In these cases, the "common peers" of the non-aligned ends cannot contain that digit.

It is easier to see than to describe. Here is an example (from the LA Times/Freep of 18-Apr-2008) that is in two rows:
Code:
+---------------+--------------+-----------------+
| 19  348  2378 | 689  5    14 |#2-679  236   39 |
| 19  34   23   | 7   @69   14 | 5     @236   8  |
| 6   5    78   | 89   3    2  | 79     4     1  |
+---------------+--------------+-----------------+
| 2   89   58   | 1    789  3  | 4      57    6  |
| 4   6    1    | 29   279  5  | 8      37    39 |
| 7   389  358  | 4    89   6  | 19     15    2  |
+---------------+--------------+-----------------+
| 8   2    6    | 5    1    7  | 3      9     4  |
| 3   7    9    | 26   4    8  | 126   #12-6  5  |
| 5   1    4    | 3   @26   9  |@26     8     7  |
+---------------+--------------+-----------------+

The Skyscraper is on <6> in rows 2 and 9. The aligned ends are in c5. Note that row 2 (r2) is in the top "floor" (horizontal chute) and r9 is in the bottom floor, satisfying condition (1). The non-aligned ends are both in the rightmost "tower" (vertical chute), satisfying condition (2). Two of the common peers of these two non-aligned cells contain <6>, which can thus be eliminated (marked #).

(In this example, there aren't any other <6>s in c5. But, it doesn't matter if there are. The Skyscraper is still valid and works just the same.)

Hope that helps!
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