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Captain Pete
Joined: 09 Jun 2007
Posts: 55
Location: Oley, PA
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 Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 3:24 pm Post subject: Menneske SH 3800211 ultra high rating |
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| Seeing today's Easy puzzle, I went to Menneske for a challenge. I usually take on SH puzzles rated in their 50-75 range, and I'm usually able to solve those puzzles. I don't understand what that rating means, but I've almost never been able to solve the 100+ rated puzzles. Today, the puzzle that popped up was rated 1216, the highest rating I've ever seen at that site. Since this one was rated so high, I thought I'd give it a few minutes. To my amazement, I solved the puzzle, and not with any particularly advanced techniques. This only makes me more confused about the rating. |
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Marty R.
Joined: 12 Feb 2006
Posts: 5770
Location: Rochester, NY, USA
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| Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 3:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | This only makes me more confused about the rating. |
Welcome to the club. If you ever figure it out, let the rest of us know.
| Quote: | | Today, the puzzle that popped up was rated 1216, the highest rating I've ever seen at that site. |
How's this one, rated at 17,199? (I haven't tried it)
http://www.menneske.no/sudoku/eng/showpuzzle.html?number=6903541 |
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daj95376
Joined: 23 Aug 2008
Posts: 3854
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| Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 4:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Marty R. wrote: | How's this one, rated at 17,199? (I haven't tried it)
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| Code: | +-----------------------+
| . . . | . 8 3 | 9 . . |
| 1 . . | . . . | . 3 . |
| . . 4 | . . . | . 7 . |
|-------+-------+-------|
| . 4 2 | . 3 . | . . . |
| 6 . . | . . . | . . 4 |
| . . . | . 7 . | . 1 . |
|-------+-------+-------|
| . 2 . | . . . | . . . |
| . 8 . | . . 9 | 2 . . |
| . . . | 2 5 . | . . 6 |
+-----------------------+
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| Code: | #6903541 after basics -- before finned X-Wing
+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| 257 567 57 | 14567 8 3 | 9 2456 125 |
| 1 5679 5789 | 45679 2469 24567 | 4568 3 258 |
| 23589 3569 4 | 1569 1269 1256 | 1568 7 1258 |
|--------------------------+--------------------------+--------------------------|
| 5789 4 2 | 15689 3 1568 | 5678 5689 5789 |
| 6 137 137 | 589 29 258 | 37 2589 4 |
| 3589 359 3589 | 45689 7 24568 | 3568 1 23589 |
|--------------------------+--------------------------+--------------------------|
| 34579 2 135679 | 134678 146 14678 | 134578 4589 135789 |
| 3457 8 13567 | 13467 146 9 | 2 45 1357 |
| 3479 1379 1379 | 2 5 1478 | 13478 489 6 |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+
# 181 eliminations remain
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Last edited by daj95376 on Wed Aug 27, 2008 7:18 am; edited 1 time in total |
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storm_norm
Joined: 18 Oct 2007
Posts: 1741
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| Posted: Wed Aug 27, 2008 2:47 am Post subject: |
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| Code: | .------------------------.------------------------.------------------------.
| 257 567 57 | 14567 8 3 | 9 2456 125 |
| 1 5679 5789 | 45679 2469 24567 | 4568 3 258 |
| 23589 3569 4 | 1569 1269 1256 | 1568 7 1258 |
:------------------------+------------------------+------------------------:
| 5789 4 2 | 15689 3 1568 | 5678 5689 5789 |
| 6 137 137 | 589 29 258 | 37 2589 4 |
| 3589 359 3589 | 45689 7 24568 | 3568 1 23589 |
:------------------------+------------------------+------------------------:
| 34579 2 135679 | 134678 146 14678 | 134578 4589 135789 |
| 3457 8 13567 | 13467 146 9 | 2 45 1357 |
| 3479 1379 1379 | 2 5 1478 | 13478 489 6 |
'------------------------'------------------------'------------------------' |
there is coloring on 2 that removes the 2 in r3c6.
Steve R. is good at finding the strong links that result in eliminations that can be put together.
but if you pay attention to candidates 2 and 4, you can do loop.
(4)r1c4=(4)r1c8-(2)r1c8=(2)r5c8-(2)r6c9=(2)r6c7-(4)r6c7=(4)r6c4;
since each end stops in the same column, you can eliminate candidate 4 in r278c4 |
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tlanglet
Joined: 17 Oct 2007
Posts: 2468
Location: Northern California Foothills
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| Posted: Wed Aug 27, 2008 4:06 am Post subject: |
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I definitely do not normally work on Menneske puzzles at this level, but gave this one a try. The original code for #3800211 is
| Code: |
*-----------*
|4.3|..8|...|
|...|..2|.6.|
|6..|.1.|...|
|---+---+---|
|...|.9.|...|
|..8|45.|..2|
|.1.|.2.|.3.|
|---+---+---|
|5.4|...|...|
|...|..7|..3|
|.39|...|.7.|
*-----------* |
Basics got me here
| Code: |
*--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------*
| 4 259 3 | 569 67 8 | 12579 1259 1579 |
| 1789 589 17 | 359 347 2 | 345789 6 45789 |
| 6 2589 27 | 359 1 45 | 2345789 24589 45789 |
|----------------------------+----------------------------+----------------------------|
| 237 4 2567 | 78 9 13 | 15678 158 15678 |
| 379 69 8 | 4 5 13 | 1679 19 2 |
| 79 1 57 | 78 2 6 | 45789 3 45789 |
|----------------------------+----------------------------+----------------------------|
| 5 7 4 | 1236 368 9 | 1268 128 168 |
| 128 268 126 | 125 48 7 | 124589 124589 3 |
| 128 3 9 | 1256 468 45 | 124568 7 14568 |
*--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------*
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My first pass uncovered a skyscraper, and three Type 3 URs with strong links (recently called "weasels"), but I sense that much more is needed to solve the puzzle.
Specifics to this point:
skyscrapper on <4> in r3c68
Type 3 UR (with strong link on 2 in row9) on <12> r79c47; r7c7<>1
Type 3 UR (with strong link on 4 in col8) on <49> r38c78; r3c7<>9
Type 3 UR (with strong link on 3 in row23 & col7) on <39> r23c47; r23c7<>9
Ted |
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nataraj
Joined: 03 Aug 2007
Posts: 1048
Location: near Vienna, Austria
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| Posted: Wed Aug 27, 2008 5:27 am Post subject: |
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From Ted's grid (with PMs), it is a two-step solution:
step 1: skyscraper (4) cols 6 and 8 removes 4 from r8c5,r9c7,r9c9
after cleanup,
| Code: |
+--------------------------+--------------------------+--------------------------+
| 4 259 3 | 6 7 8 | 1259 1259 159 |
| 179 589 17 | 39 4 2 | 35789 6 5789 |
| 6 289 27 | 39 1 5 | 234789 2489 4789 |
+--------------------------+--------------------------+--------------------------+
| 237* 4 2567# | 78 9 13 | 15678 158 15678 |
| 379 69 8 | 4 5 13 | 1679 19 2 |
| 79 1 57 | 78 2 6 | 45789 3 45789 |
+--------------------------+--------------------------+--------------------------+
| 5 7 4 | 12 3 9 | 1268 128 168 |
| 1-2 26* 126# | 5 8 7 | 49 49 3 |
| 8 3 9 | 12 6 4 | 125 7 15 |
+--------------------------+--------------------------+--------------------------+
|
a few URs (one type 4, some with strong link), which I noted but did not use immediately. Instead ...
step 2: There is a generalized m-wing (2)r8c2=r4c1 via strong link (6) in col 3, that removes 2 from r8c1, which solves the puzzle. |
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daj95376
Joined: 23 Aug 2008
Posts: 3854
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| Posted: Wed Aug 27, 2008 7:17 am Post subject: |
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| Code: | #6903541 after basics -- before finned X-Wing
+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| 257 567 57 | 14567 8 3 | 9 2456 125 |
| 1 5679 5789 | 45679 2469 24567 | 4568 3 258 |
| 23589 3569 4 | 1569 1269 1256 | 1568 7 1258 |
|--------------------------+--------------------------+--------------------------|
| 5789 4 2 | 15689 3 1568 | 5678 5689 5789 |
| 6 137 137 | 589 29 258 | 37 2589 4 |
| 3589 359 3589 | 45689 7 24568 | 3568 1 23589 |
|--------------------------+--------------------------+--------------------------|
| 34579 2 135679 | 134678 146 14678 | 134578 4589 135789 |
| 3457 8 13567 | 13467 146 9 | 2 45 1357 |
| 3479 1379 1379 | 2 5 1478 | 13478 489 6 |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+
# 181 eliminations remain
Continuous Nice Loop:
[r1c8]=2=[r5c8]-2-[r5c56]=2=[r6c6]=4=[r6c4]-4-[r1c4]=4=[r1c8]
=> [r1c8]<>56, [r278c4]<>4, [r6c6]<>568
Basics => finish
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storm_norm
Joined: 18 Oct 2007
Posts: 1741
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| Posted: Wed Aug 27, 2008 7:26 am Post subject: |
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| nataraj wrote: | From Ted's grid (with PMs), it is a two-step solution:
step 1: skyscraper (4) cols 6 and 8 removes 4 from r8c5,r9c7,r9c9
after cleanup,
| Code: |
+--------------------------+--------------------------+--------------------------+
| 4 259 3 | 6 7 8 | 1259 1259 159 |
| 179 589 17 | 39 4 2 | 35789 6 5789 |
| 6 289 27 | 39 1 5 | 234789 2489 4789 |
+--------------------------+--------------------------+--------------------------+
| 237* 4 2567# | 78 9 13 | 15678 158 15678 |
| 379 69 8 | 4 5 13 | 1679 19 2 |
| 79 1 57 | 78 2 6 | 45789 3 45789 |
+--------------------------+--------------------------+--------------------------+
| 5 7 4 | 12 3 9 | 1268 128 168 |
| 1-2 26* 126# | 5 8 7 | 49 49 3 |
| 8 3 9 | 12 6 4 | 125 7 15 |
+--------------------------+--------------------------+--------------------------+
|
a few URs (one type 4, some with strong link), which I noted but did not use immediately. Instead ...
step 2: There is a generalized m-wing (2)r8c2=r4c1 via strong link (6) in col 3, that removes 2 from r8c1, which solves the puzzle. |
nataraj, I see the light  on the generalized m-wing.
(2=6)r8c2-(6)r8c3=(6)r4c3-(2)r4c3=(2)r4c1; r8c1<>2 |
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ravel
Joined: 21 Apr 2006
Posts: 536
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| Posted: Wed Aug 27, 2008 9:32 am Post subject: |
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Norm already found Danny's loop, but not all eliminations.
| Code: | +--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| 257 567 57 | @14567 8 3 | 9 @#24-(56) 125 |
| 1 5679 5789 | -45679 2469 24567 | 4568 3 258 |
| 23589 3569 4 | 1569 1269 1256 | 1568 7 1258 |
|--------------------------+--------------------------+--------------------------|
| 5789 4 2 | 15689 3 1568 | 5678 5689 5789 |
| 6 137 137 | 589 29 258 | 37 #2589 4 |
| 3589 359 3589 | @45689 7 @#24-(568)| 3568 1 #23589 |
|--------------------------+--------------------------+--------------------------|
| 34579 2 135679 | 13-4678 146 14678 | 134578 4589 135789 |
| 3457 8 13567 | 13-467 146 9 | 2 45 1357 |
| 3479 1379 1379 | 2 5 1478 | 13478 489 6 |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+
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I saw these combinations of skyscraper/kites in 2 numbers sometimes in solutions, but i think, they are not very common.
Since one of the pincers must be 2 (kite) and one must be 4 (skyscraper), you can eliminate the other numbers there. And also the weak links in skyscraper/kite become strong by the (continous nice) loop (or bidirectional cycle).
Probably the main advantage of nice loop and AIC notation is, that these loop eliminations can be easily figured out:
[r1c8]=2=[r5c8]-2-[r5c56]=2=[r6c6]=4=[r6c4]-4-[r1c4]=4=[r1c8]
(4)r1c4=(4)r1c8-(2)r1c8=(2)r5c8-(2)r6c9=(2)r6c6-(4)r6c6=(4)r6c4
r1c8 is 2 or 4, one of r5c8 and r6c9 (or r5c56) must be 2, r6c6 is 2 or 4, one of r6c4 and r1c4 must be 4. |
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Asellus
Joined: 05 Jun 2007
Posts: 865
Location: Sonoma County, CA, USA
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| Posted: Wed Aug 27, 2008 9:49 am Post subject: |
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Hmmm... started to post the same thing as ravel, then saw his post during a "Preview." The two loops are identical except for the minor detail that Norm uses the strong link on <2>s in r6 where Danny uses the grouped strong link on <2>s in b5.
This loop should be apparent from Medusa multi-coloring of the <2>s and <4>s, though it wouldn't necessarily be obvious to apply that method to such a grid! |
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daj95376
Joined: 23 Aug 2008
Posts: 3854
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| Posted: Wed Aug 27, 2008 4:17 pm Post subject: |
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I prefer to start continuous nice loops in a cell that's forced to two candidates because, sometimes, this is the only cell with eliminations. I'm embarrassed that I overlooked the (2) links in box 6 and row 6. 
I'm only modestly familiar with Eureka! notation. Is it common practice to show loops as not returning to the starting cell? This looks like a chain to me.
| Norm wrote: | (4)r1c4=(4)r1c8-(2)r1c8=(2)r5c8-(2)r6c9=(2)r6c6-(4)r6c6=(4)r6c4;
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Last edited by daj95376 on Wed Aug 27, 2008 10:10 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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daj95376
Joined: 23 Aug 2008
Posts: 3854
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| Posted: Wed Aug 27, 2008 4:36 pm Post subject: |
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| nataraj wrote: | | step 2: There is a generalized m-wing (2)r8c2=r4c1 via strong link (6) in col 3, that removes 2 from r8c1, which solves the puzzle. |
Unless I'm mistaken, you also need the weak link (6) in row 8.
| Code: | [r4c1]=2=[r4c3]=6=[r8c3]-6-[r8c2]-2 => [r8c1]<>2
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cgordon
Joined: 04 May 2007
Posts: 769
Location: ontario, canada
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| Posted: Wed Aug 27, 2008 7:19 pm Post subject: |
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To quote the Sex Pistols: "Never Mind the Bollocks".
I finally went to the two <1>s in Row 1 and said let it be the left one.
That didn't work - so I said let it be the right one.
Then I went to the two <2>s in Row 1 and said let it be the left one.
That didn't work - so I said let it be the right one.
Had it done in no time at all.
As the Duke said: "Sometimes a man has got to do what a man's gotta do." |
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